#063 How dare she read the tarot with Hannah Joy Graves

Written By Amanda Parker
 

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Hannah Joy Graves — known to her 117,000 followers as Cult Mother Tarot — has spent five years building one of the most distinctive voices in the tarot world. In this conversation with Amanda, she dismantles the gatekeeping around tarot, shares the remarkable story of how the cards found her, and makes an unapologetic case for owning your gifts — spiritually and financially. And then she reads Amanda's cards live.

Read the full Show Notes below!

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“I feel there’s a point in the practice where simply reading cards for yourself can only take you to a certain place and your deck will only perhaps start to really blossom or reveal itself to you when you become willing to pull cards for other people.”
— Hannah Joy Graves
 

Today's Guest

Hannah Joy Graves (AKA Cult Mother)

Hannah Joy Graves, the force behind Cult Mother is more than just a reader, she’s a witch revolutionary. A modern mystic with a punk rock soul, she blends deep esoteric wisdom with a fierce and warm spirit, shaking up traditional tarot with her raw, unfiltered and heart filled approach. Known as the Enfant Terrible of Esoterica, Hannah doesn’t just read the cards she electrifies them, zapping life into every reading with a mix of wit, wisdom, humour and fearless intuition.

Through readings, classes and her thriving online community, The Cult, she empowers seekers to move headfirst into their own magic, embracing both the mystery and the messiness of life. Whether guiding you through shadow work, eureka moment revelations, or just the everyday chaos of being human, Cult Mother is a space where magic meets renegade.

The Cult is for the curious, the wild hearted, and the ones who refuse to colour inside the lines. With Hannah at the helm, The Cult isn’t just about reading cards; it’s about rewriting the rules of magic, owning your power, and stepping boldly into the challenges of this world.

How to get in touch:

Instagram: @cultmothertarot

Website: cultmothertarot.com

Patreon: patreon.com/cultmothertarot

 
 

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Show Notes

What if the most powerful tool for self-awareness wasn't a therapy couch or a meditation app — but a deck of 78 cards? In this episode, Amanda sits down with Hannah Joy Graves, known to her devoted following as Cult Mother Tarot, for a conversation that is equal parts hilarious, deeply moving, and genuinely transformative. Hannah didn't come to tarot through a mystical lineage or a spiritual calling — she came to it sober, shaken, and standing by a canal in Berlin in the dead of January, where her dog dug up a muddy tarot card from the dirt. That was the beginning of everything.

Hannah dismantles the gatekeeping that surrounds tarot with characteristic wit and conviction. There's no right way to read the cards, she insists, because tarot has no single fixed point of origin — which means no one gets to be the final authority. What matters is the lens you bring, the life you've lived, and your willingness to sit with the images and let them move you. If they move you, she says — that's magic. Full stop. This reframe will be a revelation for anyone who's ever felt too inexperienced, too skeptical, or too messy to work with tarot.

The conversation takes some breathtaking turns — through Hannah's journey to sobriety, the origin story of the "Cult Mother" name, the very real phenomenon of the witch wound, and why making good money doing spiritual work is not a betrayal of your values but a rejection of patriarchal capitalism. Amanda shares her own experience of fighting her way out of the spiritual closet — and Hannah meets her there with both fire and grace.

And then, in the final stretch of the episode, Hannah pulls cards for Amanda live — and they land with the kind of eerie precision that makes you stop, catch your breath, and wonder what you've been avoiding.

Key Takeaways

  • Tarot has no single fixed origin — so no one has the authority to tell you you're doing it wrong. Your lived experience is the lens, and that lens is valid.

  • Your interpretation of a card is never wrong. The practice was designed without a final authority — that's a feature, not a flaw.

  • A good tarot reading should ask more questions than it answers. Its job is to guide you back to your own intuition — not to hand your power to someone else.

  • Tarot gives you a wider perspective. It’s most useful when you're too close to a situation to see the bigger picture.

  • The witch wound is real. The fear of owning your spiritual gifts runs deep because, historically, women who did this work were killed for it. It's okay if stepping out takes time.

  • You can be a brilliant healer and a thriving business person. The voice that says you can't is patriarchal capitalism — not wisdom.

  • Spiritual practice and financial abundance are not opposites. Claiming your gifts and being paid well for them is an act of resistance, not a compromise.

  • Social media numbers mean less than you think. 100 true fans are worth more than 100,000 followers who don't convert into real connection.

  • Slow down enough to actually enjoy the journey. Mark the milestones — because if you keep moving the goalposts, you'll blink and miss what you've built.

  • Tarot becomes most powerful when you read for others. The practice deepens through connection — and the casual observations others make are often the most profound.

 

What We Talked About

  • How Hannah defines tarot — not as fortune-telling, but as a tool for self-awareness, presence, and empowered decision-making

  • The 78-card structure of a traditional tarot deck: the major arcana (big archetypal themes) vs the minor arcana (day-to-day human experience)

  • Why there's no single "correct" way to read tarot — and why that's actually the whole point

  • Hannah's origin story: sobriety, Berlin, a canal in January, a dog, and a muddy Hierophant card that started it all

  • How the Cult Mother name was born from a conversation about sobriety, community, and matriarchal care

  • The witch wound — the ancestral and historical fear that runs through anyone who does this kind of work

  • Why Amanda hid the spiritual side of her work for years, and the slow, hard journey of stepping out

  • The problem with "love and light only" wellness culture — and why Hannah deliberately brings grit and reality into her practice

  • What 117k Instagram followers actually means (spoiler: much less than you'd think) and why 100 true fans beat 100,000 followers

  • A live tarot reading for Amanda on a very real issue!

Guest Quotes

  • "Hi welcome, let's put you back in the driving seat of your own experience." — Hannah Joy Graves

  • "It doesn't matter who you pray to, whether it's God, the universe or Stevie Nicks, just pray to something." — Hannah Joy Graves

  • "A good tarot reading should ask more questions than it necessarily answers." — Hannah Joy Graves

  • "I don't do love and high vibes only wellness with my work, because I just think it's not the entire picture. And it's not the entire picture for so many people." — Hannah Joy Graves

  • "If it moves us it's magic. If it moves us there is message or potential for message." — Hannah Joy Graves

  • "It's as significant as you want it to be." — Hannah Joy Graves

  • "Take what you like and leave the rest. Not everything is for you." — Hannah Joy Graves

  • "We say in the cult, you know, it's a cult not a coven. I'm in charge." — Hannah Joy Graves

  • "They killed us. Historically... we know that predominantly it was women and femmes who were healers. They were midwives, they were herbalists. They held ritual space outside of the church, and they were demonised and they were hunted and they were killed." — Hannah Joy Graves

  • "If you take my integrity off me, then I don't have anything left at all. Cause it really is core to my business." — Hannah Joy Graves

  • "If you have a hundred true fans, it is more valuable to you than a hundred thousand Instagram followers. I promise you." — Hannah Joy Graves

  • "Go slow so you can be in it and enjoy it and acknowledge it and mark those milestones instead of just kind of coming to and being like, wow." — Hannah Joy Graves

  • "I feel there's a point in the practice where simply reading cards for yourself can only take you to a certain place and your deck will only perhaps start to really blossom or reveal itself to you when you become willing to pull cards for other people." — Hannah Joy Graves

Resources to Learn More

Terms & Tools to Dig Deeper

  • Cartomancy — the practice of divination or fortune-telling using a deck of cards

  • Five of Pentacles — a Minor Arcana card associated with scarcity, fear of lack, and feeling on the outside; used by Hannah to name the fear that blocks people from pursuing new ventures

  • Hierophant (The) — Major Arcana card #5, associated with sacred knowledge, tradition, and mentorship. Hannah's dog dug up this card from a canal bank in Berlin

  • Leo stellium — in astrology, a stellium is when three or more planets are grouped in the same sign. A Leo stellium means several of a person's planets fall in Leo — associated with confidence, self-expression, performance, and natural leadership.

  • Major Arcana — the 22 "big deal" cards in a traditional 78-card tarot deck, representing major life archetypes and themes

  • Minor Arcana — the remaining 56 cards in a traditional tarot deck, divided into four suits; concerned with the day-to-day practice of being human

  • Nine of Cups — a Minor Arcana card associated with emotional fulfilment and wishes already granted; often called the "wish card"

  • Oracle cards — a category of divination cards distinct from tarot, with no fixed structure or number; often thematic and intuitive. Amanda uses these in her coaching practice

  • Page of Pentacles — a Minor Arcana card representing beginner's mind, planting seeds, practical learning, and openness to new forms of abundance

  • Page of Swords — a Minor Arcana card often associated with facing adversity with courage and resilience, and the opportunity to learn and grow through challenge. 

  • Past life regression — a therapeutic or spiritual practice in which a person is guided to access memories believed to be from previous lifetimes

  • Reiki — a Japanese energy healing modality based on channelling life force energy to support healing. Amanda is a trained Reiki healer

  • Tarot — a deck of 78 cards used as a tool for self-reflection, divination, and personal growth. A traditional deck is divided into the Major Arcana (22 cards representing major life archetypes) and the Minor Arcana (56 cards reflecting everyday human experience). Tarot has no single fixed point of origin, which means there is no one authority on how it should be read or interpreted.

  • Tarot spread — a structured layout of cards where each position has a designated meaning. Hannah uses a bespoke spread in her one-to-one readings

  • Temperance — Major Arcana card #14, associated with balance, moderation, integration, and the willingness to embrace trial and error with self-compassion

  • Witch wound — a term used in spiritual and healing communities to describe the ancestral and collective trauma carried by those who identify as healers, rooted in the historical persecution of witches

  • Wounded healer — a concept originating with Carl Jung describing healers who draw wisdom from their own experiences of suffering

Thanks for listening!

What was your biggest insight from this episode? Let me know @amandaparker.co

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Episode Transcript

DSBB - 063 - Hannah Joy Graves_Main Audio_V1

Hannah Joy Graves: [00:00:00] The idea that we have learned from our education systems that we have to study or commit X amount of hours, and then someone else has to deem you ready. Someone else has to then grant you approval. You have to be given a certificate. You have to be qualified. Whereas the nature of tarot as a practice and a lot of other kind of alt- alternative kind of sero- psychotherapeutic tools or spiritual tools or, you know, um, you're not gonna get that same path of initiation.

You're not gonna ever reach a point where anyone has the authority to deem you ready or good enough or... Than you. You're the only person now that can kinda green-light when you're ready, and I think we all really struggle with that.

Amanda Parker: Welcome to Don't Step on the Bluebells, the podcast where personal healing and transformation take center stage. I'm your host, Amanda Parker, and I'm a fellow seeker on the journey of personal growth. Join me as I delve [00:01:00] into the stories of gifted healers, guides, and everyday people who have experienced remarkable transformations.

Listen in as they share their practical wisdom to enrich your everyday life. And don't forget to hit subscribe and never miss a new episode. Welcome to today's episode of Don't Step on the Bluebells. I'm your host, Amanda Parker, and today I am so excited for this one. My guest is Hannah Joy Graves, also known as Cult Mother.

She's a full-time tarot reader, teacher, and a self-described enfant terrible of esoterica. With over 117,000 followers on Instagram and years of daily practice behind her, Hannah has built an entire movement around one radical idea: the tarot belongs to everyone. There's no initiation required, no rules to follow, no permission to ask.

This conversation goes so much deeper than the [00:02:00] cards. We get into the witch wound, building a spiritual business unapologetically, and what it really means to trust your own intuition over anyone else's rules. Oh, and she reads my cards live, so I'm a full convert. You are not going to want to miss this one, so let's go ahead and dive in Hannah, thank you so much for being here with us today.

Hannah Joy Graves: Oh, Amanda, thank you so much. It's a really, really-- it's a delight to be here. I'm not someone who doesn't absolutely love the sound of my own voice, so

Amanda Parker: Then we are both in for a treat on this one. Yeah . So I'm really excited because today we're gonna be talking all things tarot, and I'm just, like, I have so many questions. I'm, like, super curious just about your journey and how you got to be doing this incredible work that you're doing. And of course, as I've shared with you in the past, there's, like, a special connection for me just because I grew up [00:03:00] understanding things about the tarot- Amazing

just from my grandmother . So I'm really happy to hear, uh, also from you what's, what that looks like for you in your life because I definitely have my own very specific experiences with it .

Hannah Joy Graves: I can't wait to hear more about it. I always find it really fascinating. We talk about what brings people to tarot or how they first found cards when you have that family connection.

When you have someone and have memories of, of being a child and being around that, I think it's, I think it's very cool . I think you have, I think you have witches in your lineage, which is not something all of us know with any certainty, right? So .

Amanda Parker: That is accurate. I would say I didn't actually understand or know that until very recently, and now I'm like, "Oh, this runs down the mother line, does it?"

Mm-hmm. And I also have a very, uh, interesting collection of my own tarot cards because of, like, this one deck that I have that my, I guess my grandmother had gifted it to my mom [00:04:00] and then she gave it to me and it's this, like, goddess tarot. They're circular cards- Oh, amazing ... and they are like, like, crazy feminist artwork.

It's, like- Yes ... the wildest thing. It's one of my favorite decks . Oh,

Hannah Joy Graves: I'm so glad you have it as well. It's so lovely. It's so lovely to have that connection.

Amanda Parker: For most people listening, they'll have heard of tarot or they'll be somewhat familiar with the cards, right? But what is tarot to you? What does that look like to you?

Hannah Joy Graves: S- for me, predominantly tarot is a tool. So I think it's a great tool that we can kind of have in the old kit, uh, regardless of the approach that we take to it. I think it's important that people know they don't have to believe in anything particular, uh, to work with tarot. Um, and it is essentially a deck of cards.

Usually a traditional deck, we have 78 cards, 22 of them are kind of a big deal, the Major Arcana, where we're connecting with kind of major archetypes, and then moving down into the kind of Minor Arcana, we're [00:05:00] concerned more with the, the day-to-day business or practice of being human, I guess. But yeah, essentially for me, tarot for me is a tool, but it's a tool that can be used for all sorts of things.

For me, predominantly just practicing self-awareness, trying to practice being present, trying to feel a little bit more maybe connected, confident, empowered, and kind of making my own choices and my own decisions.

Amanda Parker: It's such a different perspective than maybe what I have come across when I have tried to learn tarot many times, not so successfully I might add, that it, it feels like there's often a this is tarot, this is how you do it, this is how you read it, versus like What you just described, which is like really a self-empowerment tool that you can pick cards and find yourself within it and, and use what actually works for you.

Hannah Joy Graves: And so here's the thing. I would say it isn't that one perspective is necessarily [00:06:00] correct, it really is just that they're different. So I think in a lot of divination practice, you know, if that's cartomancy, you know, using a sequence of cards, uh, or not, there are absolutely places and spaces I think where, you know, the practice of fortune telling, future predicting work, you know, it's significant, it's important, it has its own history, it has its place.

So it's not to be kind of dismissive or in any way disrespectful of that. It's just for me in my practice, the kind of more anarchic viewpoint, I guess, that comes from the understanding that tarot as we are experiencing it today does, doesn't have any one known or fixed point of origin. So that for me means that no one gets to be kind of a, an authority or have the final word or say.

So for me, the idea of your lived experience and the lens that you bring being significant in you determining what is and is not the right way to work with these cards is kind of the most important thing. And it becomes such a barrier or a block for people, I find, when they're kind of waiting for permission, um, from [00:07:00] someone to be able to even kind of maybe have a deck or shuffle a deck or, um, so for me, that idea of talking more about it as, as a tool where you don't have to necessarily have any kind of, you know, rite of initiation or family connection or, you know, belief system of any kind is just super important.

Amanda Parker: Mm. I guess I can say even with the family connection, it doesn't always make it easier. No. Well,

Hannah Joy Graves: that, that's, you know, it's when I teach, I talk to people about the fact that there's a lot of different still responses to tarot, and just because one perspective or e- experience is familiar to us, somebody for whatever reason, cultural, spiritual, uh, religious, um, might have a completely different relationship.

And again, it isn't that one, uh, one is right and one is wrong. It's, there's gotta be room for it all. I think diversity in, in the, in the tarot world and in, in our practices is just really important.

Amanda Parker: Yeah. It's, um, it's also because we're living in a, you know, time and age where, like, personal development and personal growth is really widespread, and there's so many [00:08:00] different quote-unquote right philosophies for that, but the truth is that it's just what you find at the time that you need it that helps you on that journey.

Hannah Joy Graves: I've always said take what you like and leave the rest. Not everything is for you, you know? And it's like I, I, I say not everyone is gonna like or, well, they don't. Like or appreciate, you know, the way that, uh, you know, I bring myself and my politics into the work that I do. And you know that some people believe that in order for all kinda spiritual work or healing work to be effective, that you have to somehow remove yourself from, from it entirely in order to effectively hold space for the other person, that you have to somehow be completely neutral at all times.

And I mean, somebody teach me how, really. How can you even claim- How can you even claim you have an ability to do that? I mean, it's kind of crazy to me. But I, I, I disagree. I think that the opportunity to relate through our ability to kind of practice vulnerability and [00:09:00] share our shared experience is where a lot of us can experience kind of catharsis or relief or insight or growth.

And for me, tarot is just such a great way of stimulating those conversations and encouraging that, that connection.

Amanda Parker: You just bring me back to my coach training, and it was like I remember for years kind of feeling like I had to just be zeroed out and just ask the questions. Like, no opinions, I can't share anything else.

I'm just there to ask the questions. And I think it's, it was a super powerful practice in terms of like self-management and learning that you don't just jump in and give your advice and opinions to everyone. Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves: Oh, yeah.

Amanda Parker: That's, that's also important. Um, but then it like took a couple years to kind of reintegrate myself into the work.

Yes. To the point where now with the coaching, like I might also pull oracle cards or do energy healing or whatever other practices I blend in, but I like totally didn't give myself permission for that in the first few years. It was like, "Nope, you just ask the questions." [00:10:00]

Hannah Joy Graves: That's it. I can com- I can completely re- relate to that, and I think sometimes when we end up sort of sidelining ourselves or sidelining our own experience, we're almost in a sort of bypassing ourselves.

You know, when we talk about, you know, the tendency that the wounded healer perhaps has of giving too much of themselves, uh, you know, there's, there's a lot of conversation to be had around kind of boundaries in this kind of work. But, but for me, I think learning what works for you and feels right for you and also remembering that any client who kind of seeks you out You have to respect their ability to use their own discernment as well, right?

So not al- automatically guessing or assuming how little or how much somebody would want you or expect you to kinda, kinda share is, has been important to me as well. But yeah, obviously I, I like to share a lot, so.

I'm not, I'm not necessarily... You know, I always say that a good tarot reading should ask more questions than it necessarily [00:11:00] answers. And, and I also try to say, of course, that it's not my place to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do with their life. I really think kinda guiding people in their own intuition is the role of a, of a tarot reader.

But again, as you've experienced, there are lots of different types and styles of practice as well.

Amanda Parker: Yeah, no, that really resonates for me definitely with, um, just that empowerment piece of-- But I think it's, it's empowerment, but it's also, like, not disemp- like, actively not disempowering people.

Hannah Joy Graves: Exactly.

Exactly that, right? Not the whole, "Hey, you're here. This is where you now hand your intuition over to me so I can best determine the path ahead." It's like, "Hi, welcome. Let's put you back in the driving seat of your own experience. Let's look at where we're at, different openings, opportunities, whatever could be right or wrong for you, and then you decide and head off in whichever direction you feel is best."

Um, but yeah, it's something I get really passionate about because I also have a [00:12:00] disdain uh, for people who perhaps, you know, th- this work can be used in a way that would be considered manipulative, you know, even predatory. If people are particularly vulnerable, if they, uh, have certain issues, I think it's, it would, it's fairly easy for unscrupulous pe- practitioners to kinda get their claws into people and convince them that what they need is to sit and have readings with them again and again and again and again.

And, and like you said, that disconnecting people from their autonomy then becomes deliberate, and that's a whole 'nother topic of conversation.

Amanda Parker: I know that you are not necessarily doing the one-on-one readings at the moment, but that that has been a big part of your practice. And I'd love to hear a bit, like, what does that look like if someone is coming in to work with you?

Well, actually, just, like, someone wants to work with you, and maybe it's in the context of a reading, but I know there's so much more. But what does that actually look like for you in a reading? [00:13:00]

Hannah Joy Graves: I tend to find that the reason that people seek tarot readings is because they are looking for insight, uh, that is either gonna affirm what it is that they already know or open them to the ability to look at things from other perspectives when they maybe feel particularly stuck.

You know, when you're really up close and in there and it's hard to kind of pull out and see the bigger picture, that's, I think, when a, when a tarot reading can be helpful And so for me, I've predominantly worked over Zoom because I really got kind of started during the pandemic, was when I felt kind of, well, I could be in Zoom rooms and reading cards for people, and it would be a kind of way to help keep us connected right now, maybe help people navigate some of what we're all dealing with now.

That connection and opportunity just to be like, "Hey, have you had an experience with these cards? If you haven't, let me tell you a little bit about them." Um, I always say to people, you know, as they log into a Zoom room for a reading, "If you [00:14:00] feel a little bit nervous, you're about to talk with a complete stranger over a deck of magic cards," right?

It's completely normal to feel a little bit nervous or feel a certain kind of way about it. But so that's why I like to take time to kind of coach people a little bit in the way that I do work and what they can and should c- can kind of expect from a session with me, but also what not to expect as well, you know?

And, and as long as we feel clear and happy to move forward, I usually work with people from about 45 minutes to an hour over about 10 cards. And, and the placements or the cards are just essentially the talking points, uh, in terms of the conversation that we wanna have. So I always used to kind of say it's a form of spiritual coaching, I guess, the type of work that I do.

But yeah, you have to little, leave a little bit of room for something else in order for it to be effective, which is why it stays in the realm, I guess, of magic and witchcraft, and I'm not obviously entirely unhappy about that. [00:15:00]

Amanda Parker: I was gonna say, it is, it is honestly magic, and it, it really feels like magic when you receive it, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. So even though maybe You or even myself, like, I haven't sat in the room with you for that, but when I'm receiving, I'm really like, because the way that I feel, even right now just saying this, I'm getting goosebumps. You know, the way that I feel that affirmation of like, oh my God, it, it is magic 'cause it's so hard to explain.

Like, how does that card or that description so perfectly illustrate what I'm experiencing and what I'm feeling now?

Hannah Joy Graves: Yeah. And then- Like, there

Amanda Parker: is that third person in the room sort of- Exactly.

Hannah Joy Graves: That, that for me, I guess if, if I could ever get close to a definition of magic, magic with a K, what we mean when we say universe, you know, it's kind of, I always say it doesn't matter who you pray to, whether it's God, the universe, or Stevie Nicks, just pray to something.

Right? Like, uh, you know, recognizing it's an element or an aspect of this practice kind of when I, when I teach. But yeah, that, that idea of [00:16:00] v- allowing room in the conversation for the other is also significant because if it moves us, it's magic, right? If it, if it moves us, there is message or potential for message.

And so I have an advice placement in, in the spread that I predominantly work with in one-to-one sessions, and the advice, well, who's it from? Mm. It's not from me. Mm-hmm. Don't listen to me. I don't know. Is it from the cards? Uh, you know, and, and if so, how did it get there? When did it get there? It's as significant as you want it to be, right?

Which means if you go for a reading and you think that was absolute nonsense, it didn't resonate with me at all, take that. That, that can be true. Um, just as it's true if you go for a reading and you feel incredibly moved and, like, your whole life has just been revealed to you in a way that you've never had the chance to see before.

It's, it's absolutely as significant as you wanna make it, and how much you wanna kinda act on it has to remain with you seeking the reading as well.

Amanda Parker: And do you find that people will come for single sessions, or they, do they come over and over and over again? [00:17:00]

Hannah Joy Graves: I mean, I am good. Um, yeah, I, I tend to find here's the thing, I, I like developing rapport with people.

I like knowing about people. I like asking people questions. Like, for me, especially, you know, during lockdown back in the pandemic, the idea of jumping in Zoom in order to travel anywhere in the world to meet all these different kind of people from all these different walks of life and hear their stories and, and kind of share with them was just...

I've always said this work is such a, a kind of two-way street. You know, so that, that, that opportunity to connect with people in that way, uh, and have them be that secret ingredient, that little bit of connection to the other for me as well is al- has been a big part of, big part of this for me.

Amanda Parker: Yeah, I can understand that too.

Like, uh, I definitely love that connection building and after, if I've done like an oracle reading, I wanna know what happens next. Exactly, right? So I'm like, "Hey, how are you doing? Is it like, did it land? Did you- Exactly right. So

Hannah Joy Graves: I, I might [00:18:00] have people and it's one and done, and there may be people who love the experience of getting their cards read by different practitioners, which I also enjoy.

I think it's a great way of kind of remembering or observing that no two people tend to practice in the same way. Um, but then yeah, absolutely, I, I like the fact that people would also wanna have regular readings with me. And one of the first tiers that I had in my Patreon, The Cult, um,

Amanda Parker: It is

Hannah Joy Graves: so tongue in cheek.

Um, uh- Kinda. Um, Until we build our compound, but more on that later. Mm-hmm. Um, no, with the, one of the, one of the early tiers I had in the, in The Cult invited people to sign up where they could then get a 25-minute reading with me every month, and it, it was a really lovely way of developing, like I said, that rapport and working with people regularly.

But I always just say to people, you know, when they say, "How regularly should I get a tarot reading?" Again, it's really up to you. It's that when we [00:19:00] feel a little stuck, it's when the needle's stuck in the groove and we're kind of replaying and we're finding it hard to, to, like I said, get that perspective.

That's, that is just kind of for me, uh, as and when you feel like it, rather than a prescription in terms of time.

Amanda Parker: So The Cult and Cult Mother. I'm like, I'm dying to know how did this happen.

Hannah Joy Graves: I know. I know. And I,

Amanda Parker: I have my assumptions too. I wanna share what those were once I know the real answer.

Hannah Joy Graves: Okay. Okay.

Right. Well, I, I guarantee the real answer might n- might not be what you are thinking. I mean, I will say this. I've always been kind of fascinated. I'm, I'm very into observing religion because I think most of our spirituality or spiritual practices have taken and a lot of aspects of what existed originally within a lot of religious practices.

And I don't necessarily believe in any dogmatic religion. I don't pray to Sky Daddy for certain, right? This kind of idea of it, it having to be personal to us, I think is [00:20:00] important. Because I've always had an interest in kind of the symbolism, I suppose, of religion, the symbolism we see in tarot, kind of the, the connections.

I've always been interested in, in cults. I would argue Catholicism is kind of a cult. We have robes. Some might agree with you on that. We have swinging incense. We have a lot of, you know. So, but I would also argue the Karda- the Kardashians are a cult. You know, there is a, there's a lot of cults emerging in the, in the world today, for better or worse, you know?

So the idea, idea of something having cult status or cult significance has always been kind of interesting to me, the way that people kind of align themselves often very easily with certain values and beliefs, and the way that the w- we see that being expressed. Anyway, so there's that element, but most importantly, it was that me and my best mate, Tommy, were sat in an office where we were working together at the time, and we were talking about how much our lives had changed in sobriety.

And we were talking about the fact that belonging in [00:21:00] 12-step recovery isn't dissimilar to feeling like you're in a cult, but then we were talking about how clearly you can have good cults. And then we were kinda talking about how weird it is now that I'm the one making sure that everyone on the dance floor has had enough water to drink, wondering how they're getting home, checking in with them, instead of the one that's falling through the door, you know, missing for three days.

Um, and he was like, "Yeah, you're kinda like cult mother." And I was like, "Ah, cult mother. God, I love that. Doesn't that just sound really cool? Doesn't cult mother just sound cool? And maybe I'll do something with that, like I'll print some shirts or..." And I just got ahold of it, and as soon as I decided to take the tarot reading full time, it was a scary time.

Um, yeah, cult mother was right there. It was a joke between Tommy and I about how hilarious it was that I would be ha- be in a matriarchal role to anyone, frankly. Um,[00:22:00]

yeah. So, and obviously I, I play on the fact that the stereotype with a cult obviously is that you have this gregarious leader, someone with a lot of personality, and I'm obviously with a Leo stellium, someone who's always been like, "Well, what's wrong with that?" Um,

and we, we say in the cult, you know, "It, it's a cult, not a coven. I'm in charge." Um- ... you know? So, so it's, you know, I, I know that it's gonna be important in building community that it isn't necessarily hierarchical and we move away from that, but, you know, it's, um, it's testament to my personality and hopefully my ability to be able to poke fun at that a little bit.

Amanda Parker: Yeah. And also to hold a room. You

Hannah Joy Graves: know? Well, yeah. If, if you're doing what they're accusing you of anyway, you know. If you think of some of the ways that obviously people who do what I do for a living are, are spoken to, uh, eh, the, you know, if you're, if you, if you're [00:23:00] gonna go all in it, all in, if it's go hard or go home at this point, then it's cult mother.

Amanda Parker: So I had, I had in my mind something like den mother, you know? Like thinking- Yeah ... of scouts or whatever- Yeah, yeah ... that there would be a den mother. And I'm like- Yeah ... and then she's the cult mother. I mean,

Hannah Joy Graves: there's also the New York kind of ballroom influence in terms of having mothers who would have whole houses of queer children who would turn fabulous looks and walk runways and, you know, give credit to mother.

So that, that idea I think also though, you know, around the matriarch or matriarchy and the way it can show up in different ways is, is, uh, um, deliberate with the choice of the word mother, because I'm child-free by choice, but people call me mother. So- And, and I think it's, it, that also s- speaks to that idea of seeking that kind of connection, seeking people who can hold space for you or hear you [00:24:00] without judgment or, you know.

We don't wanna talk about the mother wound. We're gonna be here all afternoon, but-

Amanda Parker: Yeah. I have another- Let's get back to the cards ... rabbit hole- Yes. ... to, uh, go down

Hannah Joy Graves: after this conversation, I think. It's gonna be Sky Daddy and the Mother Wounds. What a band.

Amanda Parker: And for your next business ... No. Mm. Mm. Um, so you mentioned that you had started- reading the cards or using- Yeah ... the cards professionally maybe, like around COVID. Can you just share a bit about what was-- how did your relationship with the cards begin, if I might ask? Wow,

Hannah Joy Graves: the, the c- the cult mother origin story honestly beggars belief at times, but here we go.

So I moved to Berlin in 2012. I know this was the date because I have it tattooed on my leg somewhere from in the midst of those, like, crazy times. I was riding the hot mess express, [00:25:00] kind of, you know, fleeing the south coast of England at, at 27 because having not joined the 27 club, I didn't really have any other plans.

So I was running a tattoo studio, uh, in Berlin and running around the clubs and just having a really good time until I wasn't. Uh, and so by the end of kinda 2016, the beginning of 2017, life, life was a mess. I was a mess. I was really aware of the fact I was probably gonna have to get sober if I was gonna figure anything out.

But it really didn't appeal to me at the time. But I went out for a walk one morning down by the canal, and in Berlin, as you know, Amanda- ... uh, people, people do make art about, out of just about anything. Um, because it was January, people had put their old Christmas trees out on the street, and so someone had kind of tied one of these old Christmas trees to the, the railings on the side of the canal, and they'd covered it in these luggage tags.

And attached to the tree [00:26:00] was a telephone, and they'd written on the telephone, "Call the universe." I, I shit you not. I'm sorry. Um, okay. So, uh- Yeah ... then I'm like, "What is this?" You know, I'm not having a good morning. I'm feeling, uh, very upset about a whole heap of stuff. But I'm like, "Okay, call the universe."

And if you turn these luggage tags over, they had different things written on them, like go to the gym or call your mom or... And I-- So I looked at the telephone and I looked at the tree. I looked at the telephone, looked at the tree, and I turn one of these tags over and it said, "Get sober."

Full body shock, like I hear you. And my dog at the time was snuffling around in the dirt, and I was like, "No, no, no. What have you got? What have you got?" And he had unearthed, like, this busted old tarot card. I know. And I was like, "What is-- What have you got? What is that?" And I was like, "Is that one of those..."

And I barely knew anything about tarot. I think an [00:27:00] artist that we'd, we'd hosted an exhibition of a friend of mine's- Uh, artwork and it was very tarot-oriented illustrations of the Major Arcana and-- but I, I just had not made the connection, but I, I knew it was maybe one of these cards, and I was trying to figure out which one it was.

And when I kinda Googled the meaning, it was the Hierophant, the keeper of sacred knowledge, and I read about how, you know, you might have belonged to one group of thinking or way of being that now isn't working for you. So you might owe it to yourself and the person you can become to seek other learning, other knowledge, other ways of kind of being, like mentorship, guidance during this time.

And I was like, "Oh. Well, thanks for that," you know.

But about a week later, trying to stay sober, helmet of bees, ran out of the front door, trying to kinda ring friends and check in and walking around my neighborhood, and on the corner, [00:28:00] somebody had created a giant paste up, like just a bit of street art of the Page of Swords. And I was like, "Wait a minute.

Is that one of those tarot card things? I'm pretty sure that's one of those tarot cards again." It's the Page of Swords. What does the Page of Swords mean? I'm Googling Page of Swords, and it's like, "Hey, you might be facing adversity, but if you can stay strong in this moment, you have the opportunity to learn and to persevere."

And I took myself home, and I went back to bed, and I stayed sober another day. And I started to think, "Maybe there's something in these cards that could be helpful to me." So when I say they found me, I literally got stalked in my neighborhood for a little while by these, by these images kinda showing up.

And as I came up on my first year of sobriety, I was in the Sou- on the south coast of England. I was like, "I'm gonna go out of Berlin. I do not wanna be here for New Year's Eve. I do not need the temptation. I'm gonna go and watch the Hogmanay on the TV with my mum, stay in the house." Um, [00:29:00] and I was in a secondhand bookshop in a little town called Winchester, and someone had pulled a book from the shelf, and stuck on the front cover of this book was the Four of Wands.

And the Four of Wands is the birthdays, celebrations, anniversaries card. It's the like, "Hey, you made it this far. Things could get really good if you can keep going." And I, I always say that I had my past, present, future reading throughout the course of 2017, and enough delicious serendipity, of course, in that story to speak to why it was I got ahold of it in the way that I did.

Um, and, and so desperately wanted an opportunity to kinda show it to or introduce it to as many people as possible because I found it so Spookily supportive, uh, in a way that I hadn't maybe found in other places, spaces, or practices before. So yeah, that's the

Amanda Parker: That's in- I mean- I know. I know ... like, it was [00:30:00] tracking you down.

And actually what, what came through just even as you were sharing, like aside from how remarkable it is that it literally- Mm ... kept like, "Are you ready yet? Are you ready yet?" Yeah. "Are you gonna listen?" Yeah. I don't know what your belief system is on this, but I- Mm ... I believe that we have multiple lifetimes.

Yeah. And I wonder if you maybe have any connection with having read in past lifetimes. Is that something you've ever thought about?

Hannah Joy Graves: No, I mean, I've, I've looked at it in the ancestral line in terms of the kind of heritage of my family in the New Forest on my mom's side, but it's nothing that I can claim to lean into or to connect with in, with too much.

But, uh, in terms of-- I've done some past life regression stuff and, um, we've done some-- In the Cult, my online community, I like to invite other practitioners. I like to invite other practitioners, so people who can come and speak on a whole variety of different tools. 'Cause in the whole take what you like, leave the rest, it's like, well, [00:31:00] hey, here is this that you might not otherwise have had access to, that you maybe haven't heard someone speak on, um, that kind of I know aligns with my values and beliefs and the way that we like to do things in the Cult.

So we've had people do all sorts of-- There's about 200 hours of different classes and content in there now. I've been at it for about five years, so. But the, the past life stuff has always been absolutely fascinating for me. Um, I did do a really spooky one 'cause I have a real-- Uh, other than my surname being Graves, of course, I have a real, I have a real obs- I'm like a taphophile.

I'm obsessed with cemeteries and cemetery symbolism, and I collect Victorian mourning jewelry. And, and I did do some past life stuff once where someone was like, "Oh, you were someone who would've been in the churchyards protecting the burial sites, uh, against grave robbers." And I was like, "Did you get that from my name?"

Um, I, I think a [00:32:00] healthy skeptic is important in connecting with anything meaningfully, spiritually. Um, but yeah, I, I'd be fascinated, of course, to know whether or not there was anything that called me to this. I think it's the classic. I think it's that once we've lived a life, once we've taken it as far as we can, which I had done, uh, at the point that we're ready to embrace something new, if maybe that is gonna be particularly challenging or difficult for us, maybe there is a little help, support, guidance that shows up in the ways that we might not have known we needed, you know?

Um, I, I definitely can't argue with the, the call. 'Cause I didn't-- I, I should be clear, I didn't wanna quit my job to read car- tarot full time. That was a whole 'nother, uh, spooky moment where I, in fact, had quit my job. I told my boss, I was like, "I'm done. I'm gonna give the tarot thing a go." And then the pandemic happened, so I ended up actually begging for my job back [00:33:00] Because I didn't wanna deal with the insecurity obviously of trying to, trying to read cards full time during that time.

But then I was in the bath in the morning and I just felt like my whole body just went-- 'Cause I was kind of getting ready to do like a stand up and, you know, corporate world, and we're doing this and we're doing that, and I felt my whole body go numb. And, and clear as anything, it was just like, "No, we're done.

We're done. We're done." And I was like, "No, no, we're not done. Health insurance. I need health insurance and I need money to pay rent. What do you mean we're done?" And I get out of the tub, and I was holding the sink and looking in the mirror, and clear as anything, I, I-- it was, "We're finished. This is not what we're doing anymore.

Um, we can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way."

Um, and I went and got si- signed off from work, and in the space that that gave me, I started thinking about how I could do this and do it for more people and do it more regularly, and whether or not I could ever make a living doing that. And then it just sort of [00:34:00] started from there, so.

Amanda Parker: Well, it's just incredible.

So anyone who's listening who does not yet follow Hannah, you have to. So I think your biggest channel is really on Instagram, right? And then you also have the Patreon. I do, yeah. But I know Instagram, uh, @cultmothertarot. Am I- Yeah ... getting it right?

Hannah Joy Graves: That's the one, yeah. Instagram is, is crazy. But also, yeah, the Patreon is the same.

I think if you just whack Cult Mother into Google, you should find me.

Amanda Parker: Yeah. Yes. I don't think there's many of you. Yeah, sorry. Um-

Hannah Joy Graves: Well, actually, there is a terrible true crime story that often hits the top of Google before me, so maybe don't, maybe don't Google Cult Mother. I

Amanda Parker: was gonna say- Um... You're, you're the only one openly saying

Hannah Joy Graves: that.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly right.

Amanda Parker: Um, yeah, but you've amassed a following of 117,000 followers- Yeah, that's crazy ... on Instagram.

Hannah Joy Graves: Yeah,

Amanda Parker: crazy. And how-- I, I mean, like how did [00:35:00] you do that? You know? I don't know,

Hannah Joy Graves: Amanda. Absolutely no- no, I, I mean, here's the thing. I've been very lucky, because there is absolutely luck involved, I think, especially these days in being able to garner like an online following or, you know, create a platform.

Um, in the fact that, you know, I've, I, I was in New York and I made content at the right time on the right topic that, that went viral, and as a result of that. You know, so I found coincid- coincidentally or not, that often it's the content that I make that has nothing to do with tarot where I end up with a load of followers.

Um, so I, I'm very lucky in the fact it has just very organically kind of popped off, I think because I'm especially opinionated. Um, but also I just think that my particular style lends itself well to social media. Um, you know, so yeah, I'm just, I'm l- just lucky I guess

Amanda Parker: Oh gosh, I will not buy that story for a minute.

But- Um ... what I will say is your [00:36:00] branding is incredible. Thank you. And it's like that juxtaposition of what's supposed to be like love and light- Yeah, yeah ... and healing and spirituality with like the edge of who you are naturally- Yeah ... is so attractive. Oh, well thank you. Because we want, we want like grit.

We want real people who are- We need it ... doing these like magic, but in re- Mm ... in the real world. And it's- Yeah, I- You're not... Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves: I just think the experience isn't complete without it, right? Very, very basically that is often expressed, I guess, in the nature of work that I do in magic, you know, uh, with the idea of there being light and shadow, and the fact that one cannot exist without the other.

And, and part of why I started Cult Mother and I have the cult is because I got told in struggling with my sobriety that I was gonna need a, an understanding of my spiritual self or some sort of spiritual practice. But dogmatic religion is something that had not been kind to me and was not gonna be drawing me back.

[00:37:00] Um, and so I started kind of seeking and looking in other places and spaces, but I just found a lot of pink leggings and, you know, tacky, crappy, buy it in China crystals, and just things that weren't gonna be able to feed me the way I felt I needed feeding then. There just wasn't the kinda the depth. I thought I need something where the nitty-gritty is maybe a little closer to the surface.

It's a little bit more readily accepted or accessible as a part of this type of work. And, and I don't, I don't do love and light, high vibes only wellness with my work because I just think it's not the entire picture, and it's an, it's not the entire picture for so many people. So many people. I learned the hard way through the hours and hours of readings that I've done how harmful it can be to start talking to people about self-care who are unsure of how it is they're even gonna get a second to themselves because of the very real weight of the responsibilities that they're under as [00:38:00] caregivers or parents or, you know.

And I'd be waxing lyrical about the temperance card and a spa day, and you just... I just watch people shut down as I stopped speaking about kind of the reality of their life and their experience. And these are the people I think that have kind of taught me so much, um, about the way I, I wanna work, and the reason why I speak about the things I do and the way that I read cards online.

And I think that, that people really follow me because they connect with the fact that it's unusual for us to live in a world where people are comfortable with being human and embracing the kind of inherent messiness that, and all the chaos that comes with that.

Amanda Parker: I mean, for me, I've only stepped into, I guess- owning more of the spiritual side of my business the last couple of years.

Like, I had it under the umbrella of leadership development and, you know, really trying to make it look, you know, pretty and corporate and all this, 'cause that was the background I came from. That's the world that [00:39:00] I was comfortable in. I was, like, terrified to be like, "I'm taking psychic classes," and- Yeah.

Yeah ... that I'm a Reiki healer and all this. Yeah. So it's been, that work for me the last three years especially, but, like, I've been doing this work now for about eight years with the Reiki mixed in. But the last three years have been, like, really, like, fighting my way out of the effing closet, you know? And oof.

And every step out was like and then, like, wanting to retreat, and then coming back, and then- But we have

Hannah Joy Graves: to remember when we talk about people call it the witch wound, the fear is real because they killed us, right? Uh, historically especially, you know, men were killed in the witch trials too, which I think is often forgotten.

But we know that predominantly it was women and femmes who were healers. They were midwives. They were herbalists. They held ritual space outside of the [00:40:00] church, and they were demonized, and they were hunted, and they were killed. So it, it does take a lot. It is a big deal when we stick our hands up and say, "Actually, I have, I am this person.

I have this to offer," and it doesn't fit, of course, with the main kind of s- you know, structure or belief system or, and, and it was perceived as such a threat and such a danger at one point that they killed us for it. So I always say to people, "Hey, it's okay if it takes a little bit of time before you're more f-" And, and even for me, you know, I, I talk a lot about, you know, w- when you start a business and you become self-employed, the years that it takes to dismantle that internalized, you know, all of those internalized ideas about how many hours a week you're s- supposed to work, and how many days you work, and when you work, and what is professional and what is unprofessional.

But I think as we start pulling on all these threads of why things like certain hairstyles or tattoos and [00:41:00] things have always been considered unprofessional, if we pull all these threads now, we're getting right back to just colonialism and patriarchy and empire and all the stuff that we've had enough of, right?

So, but yeah, I can really relate. I just wanted to say it's okay if we feel like it took me a long time. It's 'cause there's so much deconstructing and dismantling, and, and in that you are confronted with the reality of the way that we have historically been responded to.

Amanda Parker: It's so interesting because in my, like- Recent quest, you know, of like growing my business in different ways and expand-- Like the oracle readings for me, which are not the same as tarot, but I use them in like, yeah, the expansive way of opening up conversation and like personal development.

I've only been doing that since the end of last year. That I, I mean, I've been pulling cards for my like private clients for years, but it was really the, the end of last year that I started to say like, "Oh, does anyone else want a, a reading?" Like, "Is anyone else interested?" And that was like, I did [00:42:00] like 40 or 50 people were like, "Yep."

I was like, "Wait, what?" And it was so shocking to me because I think w- we talked about this, I think at the beginning of the conversation. I can't remember now. Um, like the worlds between strict business and like spirituality have been so strongly divided, and especially for women that we're always trying to be a bit more masculine or a bit more business-minded or whatever that is.

Like that has been missing for so long, that space that you can just blend all of that into like one healthy, holistic business. You can grow, you can earn money, you can grow a spiritual business, or you can be a spiritual person. I have just found that like endlessly, first of all, frustrating and fascinating.

Hannah Joy Graves: I might have a hot take for you here that you might find helpful. And it-- because I, I do a class called Reading Tarot for [00:43:00] Others, and I think a big part of what I'm working on is, is deconstructing two things. It's the idea that we have learned from our education systems that we have to study or commit X amount of hours, and then someone else has to deem you ready.

Someone else has to then grant you approval. You have to be given a certificate. You have to be qualified. Whereas the nature of tarot as a practice and a lot of other kind of alt- alternative kind of sero- psychotherapeutic tools or spiritual tools or, you know, um, you're not gonna get that same path of initiation.

You're not gonna ever reach a point where anyone has the authority to deem you ready or good enough or than you. You're the only person now that can kind of green light when you're ready, and I think we all really struggle with that. But also the idea of making money, again, pull the thread. It's colonial patriarchal capitalism that says if you are someone who is able to do emotional labor, [00:44:00] if you're someone who can hold space in this way, if you're someone especially who calls that a spiritual gift, you should be expected to do it and to do it for free.

Where's that messaging coming from? Where does that voice come from? Uh, you know, and for me, I learned or I could recognize quickly that where I can step up, use these gifts, work in association with businesses or here or there and make that money, I'm then able to offer accessibility in other ways and places and spaces that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

So I always just say to people, just be wary of that voice that sell- tells you that the two can't exist. You can't be a kickass business person, um, and, and experience abundance and enjoy that and also be a, an incredible healer, an incredible practitioner, someone who brings amazing integrity and value to what they do.

And I, I genuinely think it's patriarchy that puts us back in our place and says, "Well, you can do it, but you should merely be grateful of the opportunity." [00:45:00] At this moment,

Amanda Parker: there's a fire- Yes ... listening in. Yes. Yeah. You know?

Hannah Joy Graves: It's something I'm really passionate about because I wanna see people succeed. I wanna see people using these gifts, using these tools.

In this moment, I think we need it more than ever. Um, you know, uh, that people are not okay. Um, and, and the more that people are like, "Do you know what? I do do this and I've benefit- benefited from it, and if I can recognize the ways in which it's beneficial, then maybe I could offer that to someone else."

Wow, that's the energy, I think.

Amanda Parker: So if you were to look back at Hannah starting her business in 2020, and you wanted to give her some, you know, words of wisdom for the journey ahead, what do you wish you would have known at that time?

Hannah Joy Graves: Slow down. It's gonna be a crazy ride, and [00:46:00] instead of just white-knuckling it, screaming, uh, a lot of the time, it's okay to go slow.

It's okay to go slow. It doesn't always have to be-- And again, it's the influence of kinda capitalism and the way it shows up for all of us, I think. You know, it doesn't always have to be bigger, faster, louder. You know? The, the idea, I think, of always being mission-oriented and coming back to the mission that I had with wanting to kind of bring people to the-- invite people to the table that didn't otherwise feel invited to have certain kind of conversations, has had to kind of remain core in what I do.

But I think I lost my ability to really experience that connection, uh, the reciprocity of that myself the more that it grew and the bigger it got. And, uh, I always say I'd go back to 6,000 Instagram followers tomorrow, right? All you need is that base of people who believe in you and what you do. Uh, and I miss, I think, [00:47:00] knowing more personally the people in and around my work and my business and my-- And obviously the cult really helps with that.

It's a much, much smaller kind of deliberate community. But yeah, the, the go slow and actually be present and enjoy it, because I've really suffered from that thing where you have a goal, you have an aim, and as soon as you a- approach it, you move it. So you're never actually stopping to go, "Oh my God, what do you mean I just read tarot for Dawn French?"

Right? Do you know what I mean? Like, there's been things happen in, for me now that were beyond... I got invited today by, uh, an arts festival in Tasmania to, to go and do a talk on, like, occultism, and I'm like-- And I, I had to-- I said to my husband this morning, I said, "Can we just pause for a second 'cause I need to pause just to acknowledge that there's people on the literal other side of the world who even know who I am."

You know? It's still like... [00:48:00] So for me, yeah, one piece of advice for who I was then and where I was, it would be go slow so you can be in it and enjoy it and acknowledge it and, and mark those milestones instead of just kind of coming to and being like, "Wow."

Amanda Parker: I'm, I'm really curious what the difference for you is between hitting that 6,000 mark and now where you are, where the followers have grown. Like, what's changed for you with that? Uh, uh,

Hannah Joy Graves: I think social media has absolutely changed an awful lot in the last few years to what it used to be like. I think it's far less fun trying to build a following or create engagement online now.

I think it's really, really challenging in terms of messaging. It's turn- challenging in terms of knowing where and how to get it right. So for me, I think back then, you know, 6,000 felt significant enough that I had a, I had a business, I was doing the thing, but it also didn't feel like it was a struggle to maintain in terms of having to monitor comments and having to, you know, be...[00:49:00]

I, I can't use my DMs. I'm not one of those people that's like, "Oh, no DMs," 'cause I can't be bothered to read them. It's because there are so many DMs, and they are so wild, um, that I, I just, whoa. Um, I c- I just can't spend time in there. Uh, and I mi- I miss that. I miss the opportunity of people peop- maybe people reaching out and maybe having a conversation, and I don't like having to kind of tighten up the how and the where it is that I'm interacting with people.

But just through the sheer volume, you have to kind of close the access a little bit. So for me, yeah, the idea of people being engaged and it being active and it being fun, but not overwhelming. I think as soon as you n- get over 100K, then the sheer, like I said, noise, um, in terms of the engagement. It's what everyone wants apparently, but I get quite overwhelmed.

Amanda Parker: I, I really wonder, honestly, if that, like, everyone wants it 'cause that's the goal you're quote unquote supposed to reach, right? Like, just keep growing. Yeah, it doesn't mean anything. Can I, can I just- Well, but- ... can I

Hannah Joy Graves: just let you know it means [00:50:00] nothing? It doesn't do anything. Everyone's like, "Surely that's when you've cracked it.

That's when you've done it." No. Let's get back to 100 true believers. If you have 100 true fans, it is more valuable to you than 100,000 Instagram followers, I promise you. Only about 800 to 900 people see my stories on a, on a daily basis, right? I, I've put up class offerings before, uh, in reels that apparently can reach 50,000 people and not seen one booking.

So I always say to people in terms of doing your own thing, measure your success by the metrics of how and who, like, people, who people are and how they engage with you, and the value you feel you are offering before you do the vanity metrics of how many Instagram followers you have. Or because unless it converts, unless it puts people comfortable with you in the space or the offering that you've created, it doesn't mean anything.

Amanda Parker: So there's something else, because I know that we, uh, chatted about this briefly, uh, [00:51:00] previously. You are a person, um, who also has multiple interests and I would dare say maybe different attention spans - Yes, absolutely ... for those different things. Mm. But this is something you've really, like, poured yourself into, you know?

And you're still here. How, like, I'm like, I'm flabbergasted and impressed- ... and, like, there's many words for it. Thank you.

Hannah Joy Graves: Thank you. I will, I will say this. I, if it, if it's, if it's, if the question is how- Um, it, it is the nature of what I do and the readings that I have done over the past sort of five, six years being, as I said, a two-way street.

I have to, in my nature, be involved with work that I feel has meaning, has impact, has effect. Otherwise, I just cannot do it. Um, it's so inconvenient, but it, it, it is just the truth of who I am. But [00:52:00] I have received so much from every single person who I have ever sat in session with. I've received so much from the people who book my classes and come to my classes and share their insight and their vulnerability and their curiosity as they're learning.

You know? It keeps me connected to my own practice. So I, I honestly think the greatest gift that reading tarot and, and deciding to do this work professionally has given me is an opportunity to get into so many conversations with so many older women. Because I have gotten to read cards for people in their 60s, their 70s, their 80s, and beyond, and I am so thankful because they have been The greatest guides.

The gr-- they came to me, right? And I left being like, "Wow. Wow." Um, they-- I've, I've been taught and I've learnt [00:53:00] and I've grown, and that's why when I teach tarot, I say to people, "I feel there's a point in the practice where simply reading cards for yourself, um, can only take you to a certain place, and your deck will only perhaps start to really blossom or reveal itself to you when you become willing to pull cards for other people."

I'm not entirely convinced this was supposed to be a tool that we kept for ourselves so we could all f- feel kind of more sure or more certain. I think it's a tool that we have, uh, to encourage us to connect with one another in this way. And it, it is my experience that I have gained more reading cards for others than I think people realize.

And that's the reason why I'm able to keep, keep going, keep showing up, keep coming back, um, because I'm keen to, to hear what someone else sees in a card that I hadn't spotted ever in six years. Uh, you [00:54:00] know, the, the, the casual observations that people can make sometimes, they're really, they're really profound, and they've added really significant kind of layers of meaning for me in the deck.

Amanda Parker: And what else is, like, catching your attention? So what else are you excited about or working on? Like, is there-

Hannah Joy Graves: Oh. Ooh. I tell you what is difficult for me at the moment actually is that there is so much that I could be working on. Um, in the fact that I get a lot of people asking me to write a book, which is amazing.

I was,

Amanda Parker: I was wondering. But, you know. Yes, I've been,

Hannah Joy Graves: I've been approached by publishers. It's, I've had conversations about it, but I don't know whether it feels completely right at the moment. And then obviously people have asked me if I'll do a tarot deck. So that is something I'm toying with at the moment, but it's also something that would probably take years.

So as much as there is a lot I could do and a lot I am potentially excited [00:55:00] about, I do work really intuitively. And until intuitively I'm like ding, ding, ding loud and clear, as loud as clear, as loud and clear as it was back in 2016, 2017, then I'm not just gonna do it for the sake of it, if that makes sense.

You know? I don't wanna do a deck just 'cause I could do a deck and people would buy it. I wanna do a deck because I feel like it makes, like, a valuable contribution to tarot, and that feels really significant to me. So if I do it, I'm gonna wanna get it right.

Amanda Parker: Yeah. And I think that's just really speaks to your integrity, because so many people would just do it.

Hannah Joy Graves: I hate sometimes being someone who can't use ChatGPT to do, like, an AI generated tarot spread that could just be mass print- printed in China, that I could stick on a drop ship website so I could buy a house. You know? Like, I kinda low-key some days, but you know, hey, I, I've always said if you take my integrity off me, then I don't have anything left at all, 'cause it really is [00:56:00] core to my business, and it wouldn't, it just wouldn't be who I am, which is why I don't do it.

Amanda Parker: And I, I think also just because the nature of who you are and how you teach everything to be intuitive versus, like, you know, reading the book, your people would feel it. 'Cause I can- Oh, yeah ... guarantee even- Mm ... even from the creators who I, I love and I, maybe I have a couple of decks or books or things, I know when they created it really in that alignment, and I know when they were like Oh, great.

This is gonna be a bestseller

Hannah Joy Graves: Right? There we go, right? Let's just put this

Amanda Parker: out there. Yep. And it, it's

Hannah Joy Graves: tough because we are all living under capitalism. We all have to live, right? But that idea of just 'cause I could do it and because it could be successful, what is coming back again to this idea of, like, the mission, the real meaning in it.

If it's not quite there, if it hasn't quite clicked, if I don't quite trust it, then I'm not gonna do it, so. But I do feel like I'm kinda I don't know, percolating something. I just don't know what it is yet

Amanda Parker: When you said the tarot deck, which, like, I guess sounds [00:57:00] obvious based on- Yeah ... our conversation, like- Yeah

that that would be something people are asking you for. But I'm like, ooh, I see a photo shoot in your future.

Hannah Joy Graves: Oh, thank you, darling.

Amanda Parker: Your, your

Hannah Joy Graves: own cards. I tell you what, it's actually Michelle Knight, who is an amazing UK-based astrologer. Michelle did a fantastic deck, um, and invited me to London for the launch of this deck.

Like, Michelle is just fabulous, lives in a castle full of parrots and, you know. Um, and, uh, she's just, just turned 60. Happy birthday, Michelle Knight. Um, when I, when I got the deck, I was kinda like kinda looking through it and looking at the images, and looking at certain cards like The Empress. I was like, "Michelle, it's you."

And she was very like, "Yeah, obviously. If I'm gonna do, like, a deck, why am I not putting myself in the imagery in my own cards?" And I was like, "Honestly, 10 out of 10, no notes." Yeah. Absolutely love it.

Amanda Parker: Oh, she had the right idea, I'd [00:58:00] say. Yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves: Iconic behavior. Absolutely iconic, you know? And, and well, Pixie Coleman Smith did that. You know, I work extensively with the Rider-Waite-Smith tarot deck, um, which was illustrated by, yeah, Pixie or Pamela Coleman Smith and released in about 1909. And the- it's just such a fantastic deck because she was such a subversive and interesting person and artist, and she actually has memorialized or immortalized several of her friends that she would've been running around London with in the theater scene at, at that time.

And when you start to... You know, they're very kind of very simple, seemingly naive illustrations, and you actually look at photographs of these people and some of the figures in the deck, and you can really, really see it. So yeah, maybe I'll, I'll put you in there as well, Amanda.

Amanda Parker: Oh my God, yes please. With bluebells.

Hannah Joy Graves: With

Amanda Parker: bluebells. I, I'm a, I'm a certified crazy cat lady, so we can throw a few cats

Hannah Joy Graves: in there too. Yes. Oh my God, me too. I have three of them, so we'll have loads of cats. I've always said my Nine of Swords, you know, gives us a card with a figure laying in the bed, bothered at night, and I think there has to [00:59:00] be a cat in there somewhere, you know, on the chest.

Amanda Parker: Bothered at night. Licking your nose while you're trying to sleep. Exactly.

Hannah Joy Graves: Yeah. Let me guess, the bottom of the biscuit bowl is visible. How dare I rest? Ah.

Amanda Parker: Oh. Ooh, I see something fun happening here. I'm

Hannah Joy Graves: just gonna start shuffling these cards. Is there anything else we wanted to talk about or you wanted to ask before I switch gears- No, I'm asking-

into reading some cards for you ... everything I want to know. Yeah? Um, let's have another look. So Amanda, I always say... Ooh. Right.

That one

Amanda Parker: wants to be seen Yeah, a

Hannah Joy Graves: card did just fly out the deck, but spoilers, I don't actually pay a lot of attention to that when I'm doing messy shuffling. So I'm gonna slide it back in and we're gonna, we're gonna start again. Um, okay. All I need from you is your curiosity. So remember, this is just an [01:00:00] opportunity for you to pause, to connect, to reflect as I shuffle my deck.

Is there anything particular that you would like to know? Is there any insight or awareness that could be valuable to you in any particular area or place? You don't have to tell me, but it's also absolutely okay if you want to as well.

Amanda Parker: Well, I'm growing my business in new ways that feel very uncomfortable to me at the moment.

Hannah Joy Graves: Okay. Gotcha.

Amanda Parker: And I can already feel that even- Mm-hmm ... saying that out loud. And yeah, I keep going. There's like moments of clarity and confidence, and there's moments of like, "What am I even thinking? I don't wanna do this." Okay. "I can't do this. It's never gonna work."

Hannah Joy Graves: Right. I'm rolling my sleeves up. We are getting stuff in.

Let's go. So, right, I have a lot that I wanna say. I have a lot of my opinion, but what I'm gonna do now is I'm gonna work to [01:01:00] kind of move that out the way because I want us to focus on these cards and what it is that you feel these cards could have to say. Um, and what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna use some placements that I created that I find can be just kind of helpful as a little meditative check-in where I'm gonna ask, what is it helpful for you to reflect on right now?

How can you best grow in your understanding, your effectiveness in the midst of where you are at right now? I'm gonna look at challenge. Don't worry, we'll go quick. Um, but I'm also, I'm also gonna do outcome, so a little bit of where could we be headed in connection to the cards that we look at today.

Does that, does that sound good? Does that feel good?

Amanda Parker: Sounds amazing. Hell yeah.

Hannah Joy Graves: Awesome. Great. Amanda, let's have a little look. We are asking for reflect, grow, watch out, and Outcome. So starting with your what could it help be helpful for you to reflect on right now? Ah, [01:02:00] yes. Temperance nonetheless. This is amazing.

I, I'm gonna tell you why right. So Temperance from the Major Arcana, we see a figure, an angelic figure with their two cups. They have a foot on the ground and also their foot in the water. This is a card that is all about, yes, prioritizing our wellbeing, kind of moderation. We're looking for the right blend.

We're looking for the right solution. The way that we're moving these cups, symbolic of our kind of subconscious awareness, the dream, the desire, the intuition. But Temperance is also Sagittarius energy. It's fire energy. And in the energy of Sagittarius, kind of symbolized by the centaur shooting their arrow, it's all about being willing to shoot our shot.

So in the energy of Temperance, as a what to reflect on here, we're kind of reminded of the importance of loving on ourselves enough to embrace the process of trial and error. Yeah, I might not get it totally right, but if I can come from this place of surrender, [01:03:00] if I can come from this place of kind of authenticity, connection, wellness, um, I'm gonna be able to treat it as that learning curve, that learning opportunity.

I'm gonna be able to make it make sense in a way that actually becomes really beautiful here in the energy of Temperance.

Amanda Parker: Ding,

Hannah Joy Graves: ding, ding. I know. Ding, ding, ding. So as a, as a what to reflect on. Also this idea of, look, we, you know, I, I had a conversation with Tommy about this 'cause he runs a small business as well.

On our podcast, um, this week, uh, ans- ans- answering questions from people who feel they're struggling with business at the moment, and it was this idea of you and yourself being at the core or the heart of what you do. And you're, you will only be as well, uh, your business will only be as well as you are essentially, right?

It was kind of what we were talking about. Uh, and, and Temperance kind of giving us a little bit of a connection to that idea as well. Is that helpful?

Amanda Parker: It is very helpful. Yes. Okay, good.

Hannah Joy Graves: Come on. Awesome. We love it. Well, let's have a look at, okay, growth effectiveness in the midst of this. I have the Nine of Cups, right?

So [01:04:00] first and foremost, you're gonna need to take a minute to acknowledge just how much you are crushing it right now. Yes, because this little figure actually in this illustration, they're seated with their arms folded. They're looking kind of smug and pleased with themselves with these nine cups in the back.

And so we really have this idea of, you know what? My cup's in a row. I've got emotional awareness, I've got emotional intelligence, I've experienced a lot, and I actually feel like there is balance, equilibrium there. That it is kind of solid and I'm allowed to just take a minute and be kinda obs- observant here of how a lot of my wishes and my dreams have already been fulfilled.

Let's go. Um, so growth and understanding maybe in accepting that there is a really good base, there's a good foundation. We are ready to kind of close out what was and open what's new here. There is a little bit of would this figure let you look behind the curtains, right? Are they a little bit defensive?

Are they a little bit like, "Nothing to see here, I'm fine." Right? Which encourages us again to kind of bring that messy kind of real part of who we are into the mix here as well. You know, we're not gonna rest on our laurels. It's not the most comfortable place. It's just a little wooden bench that they're [01:05:00] seated on.

But just this idea of yes, but just taking a minute is significant in terms of where I go next. Is that helpful?

Amanda Parker: That is extremely helpful, yes.

Hannah Joy Graves: Yes. Good. It's giving not mine- I am

Amanda Parker: celebrating me.

Hannah Joy Graves: Yes, exactly right. Exactly right. And I, I think, you know, especially when we're kind of moving into new things or evolving or growing things in our businesses, it's really easy to feel like we're always at ground zero, that we're at the bottom rung and it's just the beginning.

But if you look at, I guess, what in another life I'd have called them transferable skills, right? If we, if we are our age now, we look back at the lives that we've lived and the work that we've done and the people we've gotten to interact with and the... We bring so much already to the starting point that we're already ki- kind of often better equipped, more aware kinda, and ready and are able to be just kind of, like I said, a little bit pleased with ourselves with this one as, as, as we are able.

Okay, good. Now, what did we throw in here? We threw in a little bit of what to watch out for or move with awareness of, right? Yeah, we [01:06:00] did. Mm-hmm. Okay. Uh-oh. Amanda, hold up. I have pulled the five of pentacles. Okay. So in the Five of Pent-, I can understand the reaction because this is a card that shows us two figures trudging around in the dark and the snow.

They're clearly not having a great time, and it is a card that's synonymous with lack and synonymous with loss. It's a card that I pulled a lot when I was thinking of taking Cult Mother full time, right? Because the Five of Pentacles, especially as a what to watch out for, is gonna show up as those scarcity issues.

The concern that we just don't have the energy, we don't have the resources, and if we do, this is not the time or the place to invest it because otherwise we're gonna be shut out, ostracized, othered. This figure wears a leper's bell, right? They really feel like they're on the, on the periphery. And if you're doing spiritual work correctly, that's absolutely how you'll feel.

Um, so perhaps as a what to watch out for is that very [01:07:00] normal fear that is instilled in, in us, especially under patriarchal capitalism of you will not win. The struggle will be so real. Um, but what have we already learnt about our experience, our relationship with this card that can help us to be aware of it and work with it right now?

I absolutely am afraid every month that I'm not gonna be able to pay my rent or my bills, so that motivates me to do the things that I know I need to do, but it doesn't need to be any more or any bigger than that in terms of the bigger picture. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm.

Amanda Parker: Yeah, it does. Mm. It's, yeah, the scarcity thing comes up a lot, yes.

Hannah Joy Graves: Yeah. Well, that's- And, and

Amanda Parker: the w- yeah, and the wonder of like, "Okay, but I already have sort of a working system. Why would I rock the boat?" I love that. Why not just believe it? That is

Hannah Joy Graves: so Five of Pentacles, you know? Because the cl- card before the four, it gives us structure. It gives us stability. It's hard actually for us to release and let go of where we're investing energy, effort in order to find stability.

But fours, as much as they give us safety, they also start to stagnate. [01:08:00] So the challenge, the adversity of the fives comes through to encourage us through the discomfort of maybe not feeling nurtured, nourished, needing a different kind of value to, to nurture us, to sustain us, to give us that stability, and that is so Five of Pentacles.

So yeah, as a what to watch out for, it's a whole lot. Um, let's look at the outcome. I love it I love it. Okay, outcome. I have the Page of Pentacles. Are you joking? Pa- Pages are the apprentices in the deck. They remind us of the value of moving with beginner's mind because it enables us, yes, we're gonna be anxious, but there's also opening an opportunity here.

In this Page of Pentacles, the little youthful figure holding their golden coin, and we also get this amazing yellow color in the background, which in this deck is synonymous with a lot of magic, a lot of potential, a lot of positivity. This figure is like, "What little seeds am I gonna plant? What, what do I wanna start to nurture and nourish in order to grow that different [01:09:00] kind of value, different kind of abundance, to learn and grow in new and different ways?"

So this energy's great here as well because it's earth energy. We pulled Temperance, we pulled the Nine of Cups. It's all in the emotion, the intuition. It's very hard for us to kinda trust it 'cause it doesn't feel very practical. Um, but the Page of Pentacles has both feet on the ground. They are fully prepared to do what needs to be done in the day that they're in, but it is the Five of Pentacles and the concerns around lack or where it puts us sometimes, especially in relationship to others, that can be a little bit of a block or an obstacle here.

So, but outcome of the Page of Pentacles is, well, we're gonna do the thing and have a good time doing it as well. Um, it really is all to- ... all to play for, and kind of a really nice selection of cards, I think, in connection with your curiosity, your question.

Amanda Parker: Oh, that's... Okay. Like, no more excuses, Hannah I mean, yeah, I know it's kind of- You've just given me no more excuses.

Kind

Hannah Joy Graves: of a cliche, I know, but temperance on the table I think is a what to reflect on just to remind you to trust your practice, trust your intuition- Yeah ... trust that, that [01:10:00] kind of shoot my shot Sagittarius 'cause I love myself kind of trial and energy error here. Um, and we are absolutely kind of heading in the right direction always in the energy of a, of a Page.

Love to see it.

Amanda Parker: Okay. Now, now I'm in the cult. Okay? Yeah. Welcome. I'm converted. Oh my gosh, thank you so much. That was amazing. Oh, you're so welcome.

Hannah Joy Graves: You're so welcome. I hope

Amanda Parker: everyone listening really understands how truly special that is, and you can see the video clips later, so you'll be able to actually watch- You'll be able to see the cards.

Amazing. Yes. Oh my gosh, and also how beautifully you whip them out.

Hannah Joy Graves: Yeah. It's honestly, and I, I'd say this to anyone, you know, maybe if, if someone is listening and they're n- they've never touched a tarot deck, if there's that little bit of trepidation or people who wanna take lessons or learn or... It's really important to remember the old compare and despair.

Because I get people come to my class and they're like, "I wanna read cards like you do." [01:11:00] No one is ever gonna read tarot like I do. The fact, as I said, that no two people read cards in the same way is part of the magic of this practice, and people have to remember when they watch me whip out a card and wax lyrical about it for kind of a couple of minutes on Instagram, that I've been doing this every day full time for half a decade, right?

So unless you've got that kind of relationship and familiarity with your deck, it's ne- it's not gonna be as immediate until you've got five years of time of practice, you know? And it really is with, with tarot a case of just practice makes perfect. You're looking to develop a relationship with your cards and with your deck, and the more time y- you spend kind of investing in that relationship, the more that it, that, that it grows over time.

Amanda Parker: Oh, that's amazing. So people who are listening and they want to be in your world, what is the best place for them to, to do that?

Hannah Joy Graves: You can have a look at my website, which is cultmothertarot.com. I do have a Patreon, which is kind of a, the [01:12:00] membership-based platform where I teach different classes, I invite different guests, I host community catch-ups, so that's patreon.com/cultmothertarot.

But all of those links are in my bio on Instagram where you can find me at, @cultmothertarot.

Amanda Parker: Yeah. And I'm gonna share all those links in the show notes, so- Thank you ... I know definitely a number of listeners who are super keen- ... on learning tarot and learning with you, so. Amazing. I, my, my

Hannah Joy Graves: next, I think I'm teaching my course again in September, and then again in November, so, uh, if they have a look at the website.

I do love teaching tarot, but the core, as I said, of my teaching is Go your own way and remember no one can actually tell you that your interpretation is wrong or incorrect because it's just not. It's just not. There you go. It's just not. You

Amanda Parker: heard it from the cult mother herself. I, I trust

Hannah Joy Graves: your intuition.

I trust your intuition. Um,

Amanda Parker: well, Hannah, I am so, so grateful that you said yes to [01:13:00] join me here and that we could have this conversation today.

Hannah Joy Graves: Oh, I loved it. Amanda, thank you so, so much. Thank you for the opportunity.

Amanda Parker: And to everyone who's listening, thanks for tuning in to this episode of Don't Step on the Bluebells, and I will see you next time.

Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of Don't Step on the Bluebells. If you enjoyed this conversation, please give the podcast a five-star rating wherever you listen. And don't forget to hit subscribe and follow along so you never miss a new

episode.

Amanda Parker
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